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Talk:Ferengi/archive
References I couldn't help but notice that Logan 5 has removed all of the references from the article and placed them at the bottom of the page so I can no longer figure out which material comes from where, nor can I see if it is all canon at a glance. I'm wondering which is correct, the list of references at the bottom or the material sited within the article itself. Personally I think it should have both, as a user could be looking for a list of references or be wondering where a certain fact comes from. Jaf 13:40, 11 Aug 2005 (UTC)Jaf : Most of these can be put back by looking at the history page, I just felt it got distracting as you were reading through a paragraph that might have 3-4 different references. Logan 5 14:43, 11 Aug 2005 (UTC) ::Please do. Since it is important to have a reference for each bit of information, it is most convenient to have those in the main text, not as a list below. -- Cid Highwind 14:55, 11 Aug 2005 (UTC) :::This seems to have been removed again somewhere along the way. Once again I came here looking to see how many episodes the Ferengi were cited in and once again the list has gone. Jaf 22:34, 7 December 2006 (UTC)Jaf ::::I just grabbed an old reference list from the history. But, at a glance I think it needs work as it has a couple of appearences in it. The reference section should not be a repeat of the appearences section. Jaf 22:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)Jaf On Ferenginar, we learn about the Continuum while we still have our first set of ears Hey, I'm wondering what we should make of Nog's line in Treachery, Faith and the Great River he says on Ferenginar we learn about the Great Material Continuum before we get our first set of ears. I know it sounds like it might be something like human teeth, but what do we really know from this statement? Tyrant 23:09, 31 Jan 2005 (CET) : Seems to me that he is referring to puberty, or the Ferengi equivalent. The fact that they shed their ears like antlers seems a bit "out there", if I am getting what you are implying. --Gvsualan 01:42, 1 Feb 2005 (CET) I misquoted that. It was; On Ferenginar, we learn about the Continuum while we still have our first set of ears Not sure if we can guess it is puberty, but it seems we should be able to assume they have at least two sets of ears in a lifetime. Tyrant 01:47, 1 Feb 2005 (CET) :Without taking things too literally, when they should be taken figuratively, if you consider the amount of sexual identification the Ferengi associate with their ears, this very much sounds like, in their terminology, the definition of pre-pubescence. --Gvsualan 19:27, 1 Feb 2005 (CET) :I disagree. I didn't take anything sexual from the statement, to me it sounded very much like the way we would reference teeth. And I worry that if we start applying figurative or symbolic meaning to statements we risk trying to create canon and not simply recording it. I think both of us have made our positions known, anyone else have a take on this? Tyrant 19:36, 1 Feb 2005 (CET)Tyrant ::sigh Correct me if I am wrong, but at what point exactly did I say the statement was sexual? --Gvsualan 23:25, 1 Feb 2005 (CET) Ease up on the paranoia, puberty usually means a state of sexual development. I thought you were saying that Nog's statement was refering to puberty, now I have no idea what you mean. And I know the concept of their ears falling off may seem a little alien, but this is science fiction, and it is no more 'out there' then people ageing backwards or deevolving into spiders. Tyrant 23:32, 1 Feb 2005 (CET)Tyrant :::Hmmm, it can obviously be interpreted in the two aforementionen ways.. Yet, I believe that is is more realistic to assume that Nog is referring to phases of development.. But why would he then reder to it as the "first set"? We shouldn't infer what we can not possibly know, but this is still a good reference as long as it is used with caution... (Toddas 23:38, 1 Feb 2005 (CET)) Wouldn't taking this anyway but literally be an application of our own assumptions? Jaf 13:43, 21 March 2006 (UTC)Jaf :Come to think of it, I think this might be a case of "archivist's assessment of the trustworthiness of the character who is the source of the resource"? Jaf 23:33, 13 December 2006 (UTC)Jaf Rom as Nagus There's been mention that we should include something about the changes to Ferengi culture after Rom took over as Nagus, but I'm having a hard time finding anything concrete on that. What did Ishka and Zek say, and how did Rom respond, on his promotion to Nagus? Was it stated what sort of reforms they expected him to enact or are we just speculating? Logan 5 22:47, 21 Jul 2005 (UTC) IIRC, Zek had already initiated reforms on Ferenginar. If you will remember, Quark and Brunt are complaining about taxes on Ferenginar. Willie 09:48, 4 September 2006 (UTC) Heart Rate That's a nice bit of info, but I just watched that episode the other night and there wasn't a reference there. Did it come from script or on-screen? If the former maybe it belongs as a background note in that section? Logan 5 14:43, 11 Aug 2005 (UTC) Anti-Jewish??? Why anti-Jewish? zsingaya 08:18, 4 Sep 2005 (UTC) *The link someone posted there specifically says jewish, not semites BajoranBrouhaha But... you posted it! Where in either Canon Star Trek, or in production notes, or even in the Star Trek community, does it say specifically "anti-jewish"? Maybe when you get back from being banned, you can answer this :) zsingaya 22:16, 4 Sep 2005 (UTC) :I was wondering the same thing. It's either an interpretation of a very, very small group of people or a joke. There's the stereotypical "Jewish are good with money" thing, and I guess somebody decided to compare the profit-seeking Ferengi to the Jewish and then saw it as an attack against Jews. It's stupid, if you ask me, and I personally don't think it belongs here, regardless of whether it's an honest interpretation or someone's bad idea of a joke. --From Andoria with Love 00:02, 5 Sep 2005 (UTC) * Remove it. The person who posted it was a self-admitted member of Wikipedia:GNAA, and many of his posts were "soft-vandalism". He repeated posted at N* just so it would show up repeatedly on the Recent Changes page, and posted smoething about Pretzels with George Bush and Star Trke. Despite that, I wouldn't say its a Large minority that believe this, I know I've never even heard of it. And reading the article on that page, it can't be taken seriously. (PS: The Ferengi were suspected of Canibalism!?) -AJHalliwell 00:13, 5 Sep 2005 (UTC) :*Agreed. It has been removed. --From Andoria with Love 00:29, 5 Sep 2005 (UTC) ::I ran into this 'Ferengi as Jewish sterotype' idea again since seeing it here. Anyone know if there is an academic basis to this assertion? If so it should be noted on the Judaism page. If it turns out lack any legitimate source we should leave it out as it would not only be hearsay, but probably be more trouble then it can possibly be worth. Jaf 01:36, 22 March 2006 (UTC)Jaf :I really doubt that Gene Roddenberry or Rick Berman, both born Jewish would try to put in such a hurtful slur, especially considering the Ferengi were originally concieved to be the new enemy to replace the klingons - only to be deemed not scary enough and replaced by the borg. Jaz talk | novels 03:11, 22 March 2006 (UTC) ::Yeah, I had originally dismissed it, but when it popped up again I got to wondering where it was coming from and if it could hold water. Jaf 03:29, 22 March 2006 (UTC)Jaf Ferengi Philosophy :Moved from Memory Alpha:Ten Forward This page was deleted recently (though it still has some links to it) and I was thinking of re-adding it but wanted to post here first since it was deleted once already. I've been re-watching a lot of Ferengi episodes lately and while the last article was a one-sentence summary (and I was one of the ones who voted to delete), I do feel there is enough to expand the article and make it worth having its own page. There's enough material on Ferengi ethics, business practices, and social philosophy that doesn't easily fit into any other page but currently lacks reference in most Ferengi areas. Like I said, a head's up more than anything but since it was deleted once I thought I should mention it. Logan 5 20:59, 3 Aug 2005 (UTC) :A compromise: Create Ferengi philosophy as a redirect to Ferengi and start a section Ferengi philosophy there. We can always move the content if it is enough to deserve its own article. -- Cid Highwind 21:10, 3 Aug 2005 (UTC) :I wholeheartedly agree with Mr. Highwind. The Ferengi article covers religious beliefs, but is a bit light on temporal beliefs and practices. A philosophy section should be erected at once! --Werideatdusk 08:18, 7 Aug 2005 (UTC) :I agress make it a re-direct and reate the section in the Ferrengi article atleast for now--Kahless 18:44, 11 Aug 2005 (UTC) Vote for Featured Article Ferengi (07/14/05) *I've added a lot to this by expanding, adding sections, and making sure that a lot of the links had articles created. There's still several areas that could be expanded, I think, and some links that need creating. But by and large I think this is a pretty good summation and description of a species, and could be more so with community effort. It's certainly one of the most complete species pages we have from a post-TOS era (which means Klingons, Romulans, and Vulcans don't count). Logan 5 20:54, 14 Jul 2005 (UTC) *'Neutral' Good job, but it seems to me that while there is a lot of information, it isn't nessessarily well organized. Futz around with the prospect of consolidation. 1729 23:16, 14 Jul 2005 (UTC) *'Support' Tobyk777 17, July, 2005 *'Oppose'. Among other things, I don't see any mention of Nog's ascension to Nagus and the reforms he was going to make. - AJHalliwell 20:35, 19 Jul 2005 (UTC) :*Rom, not Nog, ascended to Nagus. Where would that go? Society, or Government? And it seems like we'd have to significantly expand either one to accomodate both the previous history of the Nagus and future reforms. Which leads me to think that might be better placed in the Nagus listing with only some slight, not significant, mention here. Logan 5 15:32, 21 Jul 2005 (UTC) *'Oppose' I feel the information on society and culture can be expanded. Jaf 15:43, 21 Jul 2005 (UTC)Jaf :: Archived--Alan del Beccio 19:13, 24 Jul 2005 (UTC) Ferengi (09/04/05) perfect in every way BajoranBrouhaha 09:06, 4 Sep 2005 (UTC) *'Oppose'. It's an extensive article but hardly perfect. I'd personally like to see a bit more on their culture. I don't think that the references are complete either.--Scimitar 00:57, 5 Sep 2005 (UTC) *'Oppose' Yes I am oppsoing this one contrary to popular belief that I support everything. There is no list of appearances. The article has no link to the rules of Aquisition that I can find. The refrences are incomplete. There is no list of Ferangi, or at least a link to another aticle with a list. Tobyk777 02:11, 5 Sep 2005 (UTC) **'Comment' - Did you read the article? There is at least one link to the Rules, and there is a link to a list of Ferengi (see the People section). And the references are pretty darn near complete, at least from all of the major Ferengi episodes on DS9. I'm sure there are some missing but most likely they are off-hand references in episodes that don't focus on the Ferengi. If they are missing, I'm hoping someone like yourself will put them in. A list of appearances would be good though... Logan 5 16:23, 6 Sep 2005 (UTC) ***I did read the article completely. I didn't see a link to the rules or to a list a ferangi. I might have glaced over it while reading. Let me also point out that in the comment ;preceeding this one you used the phrase "I'm sure there are some missing" that means that it's incomplete. Tobyk777 00:16, 7 Sep 2005 (UTC) ****"that means that it's incomplete." Uh-huh, which is one of my stated reasons for opposing it below. I was only pointing out that two of your reasons were inaccurate. Logan 5 03:34, 7 Sep 2005 (UTC) *****I think that someone went in and revised it. now I count 3 links to the rules. I didn't see any before. Tobyk777 04:30, 7 Sep 2005 (UTC) **'Comment' - I think this should be removed, based on the fact it was nomiated by a blocked user. --Alan del Beccio 05:35, 5 Sep 2005 (UTC) ***How can a blocked user nominate something? They're blocked, right? **** Well, that would be because they were blocked after they nominated it because they turned out to be a vandal...also, please remember to sign your comments with --~~~~. Thanks, Alan del Beccio *Mild Oppose. I did a lot of work on this page myself but I feel like it's a bit wordy and probably does not capture many references from episodes that don't focus on the Ferengi (though I'm almost positive that all of the major eps are there). I'd feel more comfortable supporting the nomination after some other users had a go-round on the article to make sure there aren't important pieces of info missing. Logan 5 16:23, 6 Sep 2005 (UTC) **'Comment'. You know, even though I have a slight opposition to this article in its current state, I have to wonder how Bolians can be a featured article with such relatively little content and almost nothing in depth, and yet Ferengi is not worth it? The Bolian article is almost entirely anectdotal and yet certainly there is more known about the Ferengi, and the article is more complete, than many we've seen as FAs. I'm just starting to wonder if people just don't like the Ferengi. Just a thought/observation. *Mild Oppose. It is an extensive, well-written and well-researched article, but it just seems... incomplete to me. As Scimitar pointed out, more info on their culture would be nice. And as Gvsualan pointed out... this was nominated by a now-banned user. --From Andoria with Love 02:57, 7 Sep 2005 (UTC) Renomination (11/16/05) Self-nomination/Re-nomination. This will be the third nomination for this article. The first time it failed deservedly so, the second time I'm less sure because some objections were far more vague than we've recently allowed or were addressed and fixed. This time, however, it has been through the peer review process which has lead to more in-depth content, pictures, etc. and feedback from multiple users. I believe it meets all tangible criteria for FAs in that it is thorough, complete, well-written and stable. It's a significant species with a lot of content from all four post-TOS series and, to me at least, is informative and entertaining. I submit that unless you just don't like the Ferengi there is very little reason not to support this nomination. Logan 5 19:41, 16 Nov 2005 (UTC) : Support. An excellent and wholly comprehensive article. — THOR ''=/\='' 21:19, 19 Nov 2005 (UTC) :Question. Looks good, but what does "belief in the finite but eternal nature of material accumulation means that you can take it with you" mean? I'm not an expert on Ferengi, or I'd change the wording myself, but that's a contradiction (maybe it was intended to be, but it sounds awkward to me). Sloan 19:41, 20 Nov 2005 (UTC) ::You know the saying "you can't take it with you"? Well, the Ferengi believe you can take it with you. That's what hte sentence is trying to say, maybe not as clearly as it could. Feel free to improve. Logan 5 00:39, 21 Nov 2005 (UTC) Support. Weyoun 05:05, 21 Nov 2005 (UTC) I don't share Sloan's concern; that part is fine. However, perhaps we could add some info on how the Ferengi were exaggerated charicatures of human nature and whatnot (I remember one of the writers, I think Robert Hewitt Wolfe, talking about it somewhere). That's why they were "comedic", but on the same note, would it be appropriate to note how unpopular Ferengi-centered episodes were? I wish I'd been more active in MA back when the peer review took place or I'd have brought this point up then, sorry. --Vedek Dukat Talk | Duty Roster 02:26, 22 Nov 2005 (UTC) :I'm not sure if it would be appropriate to note the general fan dislike in the background section or not, but in general I don't think we do that kind of editorializing. Besides, it would seem to be well-stated just by the lack of attention the nomination of this extensive and thorough article is getting. Logan 5 12:36, 23 Nov 2005 (UTC) ::It's definitely not appropriate to note things like popularity, but I don't know if the lack of attention is because of that. I would say it was from the relative inactivity on MA lately, but Luther Sloan apparently woke people up while this and V'Ger are glanced over. I think it's just easier to complete and vote on something minor like Sloan as opposed to a race with a character who's in every DS9 ep; as for V'Ger, I haven't seen TMP, so dunno. Weyoun 20:42, 26 Nov 2005 (UTC) *It seems there are a few citations missing in the philosophy section. I'd also like to see an appearence list and a reference list. Otherwise I support. Jaf 20:52, 27 Nov 2005 (UTC)Jaf :The reference list was deleted by another user so that's probably up to the community to return it or not. What areas of philospophy do you feel need extra citation? Logan 5 23:06, 27 Nov 2005 (UTC) ::The first paragraph, info about the lungs, brain and ribs. Jaf 13:35, 28 Nov 2005 (UTC)Jaf :Ahh, physiology. Cited. Logan 5 17:45, 28 Nov 2005 (UTC) ::Haha, my bad. Jaf 21:01, 28 Nov 2005 (UTC)Jaf :So is that a support? Logan 5 22:15, 28 Nov 2005 (UTC) ::Yup. Jaf 22:40, 28 Nov 2005 (UTC)Jaf :I'll add my support to this article as well. Yay for the Ferengi! Zsingaya ''Talk'' 22:55, 30 Nov 2005 (UTC) Support and my hat's off to Logan for bugging us (and I mean that in a positive, persistent way, not annoying) all into voting since I think people don't look at this page often enough. Good job. --Vedek Dukat Talk | Duty Roster 23:07, 30 Nov 2005 (UTC) Error in cannon...of course lol i have an issue about ferengi phisiology. on this page it is stated as fact that betazoids cannot read ferengi. (ds9: the forsaken) but i have contradictory evidence from an earlier source... the episode (tng: the battle) has troi reading daimon bok when they first make visual contact, she goes so far as to make them cut the transmission to alert picard to this fact. :But according to TNG the Trill are also... well, I think we all know THAT story. :) --Broik 23:45, 10 Jan 2006 (UTC) ::The ip user's observation is legitimate and we must account for the inconsistency. Jaf 13:41, 21 March 2006 (UTC)Jaf :::A simple background note would suffice, I think, as is done on the Trill page. Logan 5 01:07, 22 March 2006 (UTC) "make pilgrimages" say wha? I took out this last line, which is completely ad libbed by whoever wrote it in reference to Wall St: "who routinely visit Earth to make pilgrimages to the 'holy site' of commerce and business". There is no cannon evidence I know of to support this. The only reference to Wall St and Ferengi is a toss away line by Janeway that makes no mention of this so far as I know. If I'm wrong, please feel free to repost with the dialogue or script reference posted here. Logan 5 01:07, 22 March 2006 (UTC) :It's cited on Wall Street as being from 11:59. Jaf 01:28, 22 March 2006 (UTC)Jaf Comparison to the Dominion? As much as the Ferengi were supposed to be a nasty badguy, with an economic driven society, and a definate war capacity (how else could they be regarded as dangerous; I think Picard said they take no prisoners in "Farpoint"), am I the only one that thinks the Dominion was developed more as "This is what we originally had in mind as the Ferengi bad guy"? Equally, having just recently rewatched the first Ferengi episode ("Tkon"), it looks like the first half (on the spaceships) had a very different approach to the Ferengi than the second half (on planet, where even Riker did not regard them as a serious threat). I saw from the episode info that there is only one director, but it really seems like that episode was done by two different people. --Keybounce 10:53, 24 March 2006 (UTC) :If so, then what they changed was the Ferengi's mercenary direction (at best) when they fight to the Nazistic, "new order of the master race" tendancies of the Dominion. The latter, as nearly always, the more disturbing and effective. -- ChrisK 00:58, 21 July 2006 (UTC) ::The writers originally intended the Ferengi to be the "big enemy" of TNG, like the Klingons had been in TOS, but the audience just didn't find it believeable (for example, their behaviour in "The Last Outpost", or even "The Battle", was hardly terrifying). When this failed, they had to invent new enemies, like the Borg, or being back old ones, like the Romulans, or eventually in DS9, the Dominion. ::I am also not sure I would compare the Founders to the "master race" philosophy of the Nazis. The goal of the Founders was to bring order to the universe, and rule other races only to protect themselves from them. They did not have a goal of killing everything they felt to be below them, just bringing order to it. The Nazis, on the other hand, felt that everything lower needed to eventually be exterminated. It was not about bringing order, it was closer to eugenics (although not the same as eugenics). --OuroborosCobra talk 01:05, 21 July 2006 (UTC) Head thingies I skimmed the article looking for info on the thing they wrap behind their heads. 1) Did I missi the info? 2) If not, does anyone know anything about these (what they are called, their purpose if any, why Nog was allowed to wear it when he joined Starfleet). Thanks!--DannyBoy7783 01:15, 28 April 2006 (UTC) I think they are called headdresses, I don't know if that's cannon. Nog is allowed to wear one for the same reason Worf is allowed to wear his baldric. This all begs the question of why Riker and Picard jump on Ro and Tuvok jumps on Gerron about their earrings. It seems to me that Nog's headdress and Worf's baldric are both cultural items, not normally found on your average Starfleet officer. If this is true, then why would Bajorans not be allowed to wear something that is culturally significant to them. Just my two slips. P.S. Will post on Bajoran's page as well.Willie 09:57, 4 September 2006 (UTC) Name Origin I removed this note from the first paragraph: :It should be noted that the word "Ferengi" is actually a Mughal-era Indian slur applied to British and other European colonists during the 18th century, meaning essentially "greedy, cultureless foreigner." Similar information is already in the background section, but this comment is a bit more extensive. Is it worth expanding the background note a bit to use some of this text perhaps? -- Sulfur 00:35, 15 July 2006 (UTC) I believe it originates from the Amharic 'ferengi'. There are lots of parangs, barangs, ferengis, farangs, faranjis, frangos, etc. so it gets easy to lose track. What does support my assertion is the fact that the title of Grand Nagus is an obvious corruption of Amharic 'negus' (king). Put 2 and 2 together. :2 and 2 don't necesserily add up. Sounds like you are speculating to me. Unless you have an actual production resource, I am remove this, and sticking with what the note was before, which looks more like it is from a production side source. --OuroborosCobra talk 19:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC) :: Very well, name another language which a) has a variant of the word 'farang', and b) has a word for king or ruler that resembles 'negus'. You'll be hard-pressed to do so. So why isn't the title of 'Grand Nagus' something like 'Grand Rex/Raja/Khun' instead? (Especially given that Khun would actually be a more apt description of the rank of their office.) :I don't need to. Now, if you want to add the line and have it read "the name may have come from X", I have no problem with that. Otherwise, you are SPECULATING without telling the reader that. --OuroborosCobra talk 18:30, 25 August 2006 (UTC) Multiple Hearts. In the teaser for DS9 "Through the Looking Glass, when sisko takes away "Morns" voles, Quark says "It'll break his hearts. :Morn isn't a Ferengi. He is a Lurian. That article already talks about the mutliple hearts. --OuroborosCobra talk 03:14, 4 October 2006 (UTC) Ferengi living a century Considering this, is it possible she was exaggerating? --Bp 06:14, 9 January 2007 (UTC) :Even if she isn't, that is not evidence of Ferengi living longer than Humans. Humans live a long time in Trek. Dr. McCoy was 137 the last time we saw him. Let's say Ishka was 137. Her ears may not have been that firm since she was 37, yet she still would be no older than Humans. --OuroborosCobra talk 06:17, 9 January 2007 (UTC) ::Hello. First, I was the previous editor of that bit. I've re-edited the post to reflect the somewhat ambiguous nature of Ishka's comment. However, regarding the possibility of her exaggerating, while it may be possible, there's no reason to believe that she wasn't being literal. Besides, it seems like a stretch that someone would exaggerate their age in that context, especially someone that just received cosmetic treatment to seem younger. I could swear that there's more evidence of a longer Ferengi lifespan, so if I do find it I'll update then. --Wolff359 07:33, 9 January 2007 (UTC) Ferengi joke Does anyone remember the joke about the Ferengi in the monkey suit from Farpoint? Should that joke be referenced somewhere? Does anyone know how the joke concludes? Federation 01:42, 22 January 2007 (UTC) :The joke isn't in the ep- the movie made it up. (It would be surprising if it was in the ep, since the Ferengi were new to the Federation when they later appeared in The Last Outpost.) 9er 01:51, 22 January 2007 (UTC) ::Actually, while they are not seen in the episode, and the joke is not in the episode, Ferengi are mentioned in Encounter at Farpoint. It is their first mention in the franchise. --OuroborosCobra talk 01:56, 22 January 2007 (UTC) ::(Edit conflict- wow, we think alike) Actually, the Ferengi Alliance was known to the Federation as a major power in "Encounter at Farpoint," although it's obvious that none were seen until "The Last Outpost," so a joke about an unseen quasi-legendary galactic power wearing a monkey suit seems odd.--Tim Thomason 02:04, 22 January 2007 (UTC) Head-dress Does anyone know what the name of the head-dress that wraps around the back of Ferengis heads (all TNG Ferengi had them I think) which Quark does not wear? What is it purpose? Is it mentioned in this article? Federation 20:08, 12 February 2007 (UTC) *I don't think it was ever named, but the word 'head-dress' best sums it up, as you mentioned. The purpose was never stated, but it's probably a Ferengi custom to wear, just as the Bajoran earring is to the Bajorans. - Enzo Aquarius 20:10, 12 February 2007 (UTC) **Do you think it should be in this article somewhere? Federation 20:25, 12 February 2007 (UTC)